cndoom suggestions

Competition Doom aka. CNDOOM, a COMPET-N reboot, v2 or whatever you want to call it.
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slimepit
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cndoom suggestions

Post by slimepit »

- raw mouse input
- official support for no rest for the living xbla episode (selectable as an episode like ultimate doom, if detected in directory/ran with -file)
- suicide key if botching a practice run
- i suppose this would be getting too extreme but no auto weapon switch, one could dream i guess.


i'd really like for cndoom to be the main port for compet-n runs overshadowing doom2.exe (but retaining %100 gameplay/compatibility)
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fx
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Re: cndoom suggestions

Post by fx »

- advanced mouse adjustment is on my todo
- suicide key.. there is fast quit, but you can open issue on github and explain what you want
- no rest, if choco supports it, then we will too

doom2.exe is legacy/obsolete for us, thats why we want players play with cndoom.exe

It was stated many times that cndoom is not and will never be related to vanilla doom2.exe and vanilla demos and database
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Yishai
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Re: cndoom suggestions

Post by Yishai »

fx wrote:It was stated many times that cndoom is not and will never be related to vanilla doom2.exe and vanilla demos and database
But why not, exactly? Doesn't Compet-N accept demos made with a DOS emulator? Even multiple different versions of said emulator over the years? Emulators aren't perfect, and stuff can break and change between versions. So why draw the line at a very accurate source port? Isn't Choco compatible with like 99.9% of all Vanilla demos? So why make two completely separate databases? Is it mainly because you made a promise to keep Compet-N exactly as it was? If so, that promise is for the worse, in my opinion.

Have you thought about maybe running all the current #1 Compet-N demos through cndoom.exe to get their millisecond times (it's actually centiseconds, isn't it?), and transferring them over to the CNDoom database? Isn't that possible? Or do you like the idea of starting completely fresh, and are worried that the old records might intimidate and scare away new players? I for one kind of feel obligated not to submit anything unless I know I've beaten THE best record (which at this point are all still Compet-N records, no?).
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fx
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Re: cndoom suggestions

Post by fx »

Well, cndoom.exe != doom2.exe. Demos might be compatibile but it's not the same and I know what I'm talking about. I know that mouse can't be emulated the way it feels in doom2.exe. For example when I pla ZDaemon I have sensitivity 13, when I play doom2.exe I have 9, when I play Odamex I have something totally different then these to, and not to mention Prboom++. It's just not the same and will never be.
Let's imagine Olympic games where one contestant runs on mud and one on water, and one when it's raining and one when it's dark, would that be fair?
No, they have all the same environment.

There are still few things that Chocolate Doom can't emulate, for example adjusting starting angle, so when that happens I might allow Chocolate Doom demos for compet-n. Chocolate Doom also crashes on Medusa bug, etc etc... so since many years have passed and that didn't come to true I doubt it will ever be done.

Anyway, I really don't understand why is compet-n important so much. There is alternative for modern systems and it's called cndoom, play it, submit demos, have fun that's the most important.

Records are not transferred because almost nobody will upload demo slower than current compet-n record. And that's a hell of a job, there are ~9000 records to check/transfer and I really don't want to check every single one again.
Yeah it's centisecond...
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Yishai
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Re: cndoom suggestions

Post by Yishai »

fx wrote:Let's imagine Olympic games where one contestant runs on mud and one on water, and one when it's raining and one when it's dark, would that be fair? No, they have all the same environment.
That's sort of the point I was making when I pointed out that the original .exe + various versions of a DOS emulator isn't really the "same environment"'; not within itself or compared to playing with real DOS on 90s hardware. Maybe it isn't quite as big a difference compared to cndoom.exe , bit it's still different. I figured if those little differences were really THAT important, then only demos recorded on a 90s DOS machine would be acceptable. Or if we were really being a stickler about it, only demos recorded on the same version of DOS and the exact same hardware build would be acceptable. Or at the very least demos made with an emulator would be separated into their own league, with everyone using the same emulator version and configuration. But of course that's impractical and silly, and in some cases impossible to enforce, especially over the Internet. I kind of felt that separating cndoom and compet-n was just as silly for similar reasons.

However, you are far more familiar than I am with programming and everything Doom, and you've undoubtedly thought more about these issues than I have, so I will assume you have made your choices for good reasons. End of discussion.

But I wonder why no one ever says "centiseconds" or "deciseconds". :p
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fx
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Re: cndoom suggestions

Post by fx »

ms is lets say more common so I called it like that.

Yeah I'm aware of modified dosbox and modified prboom's and whatnot, thats why it's hard and even impossible to detect some kind of cheating in them (that was probably one of the reasons Adam Hegyi decided to quit). Everybody can cheat these days, but it will be obvious if some xyz submits a "pro" record first time. Anyway, decision was made and will stay that way. You can choose and I recommend cndoom. ;)
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4shockblast
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Re: cndoom suggestions

Post by 4shockblast »

I think there's a good point to what Yishai is saying. Conditions of recording have changed dramatically since the 90s, I imagine, even if a demo is recorded with the vanilla DOS exe. Old DOS machines had different screen sizes/loading times/etc. compared to modern machines, and, as an example, I remember reading an old thread once where people stated that it was easier to do something like quickstart back then because it was much easier to time the movement when Doom didn't load almost instantly. :P

That's why, I think, many more recent competitions (like various demo packs on Doomworld) accepted demos recorded in any port, as long as they are compatible with whatever port the WAD was intended for, as it's a lot easier to objectively determine the validity of a demo that way, as all you need to do is to be able to play it back that port. Arguing for how similar a port/emulator is to recording in the original exe is more difficult because everyone has their own opinions on that, especially with features like advanced HUD, timers, resolution, etc.

Still, it's probably not a good idea to merge Compet-N and CNDoom databases, as Compet-N standard is probably too old to break at this point. Many Doom runners would likely be against such a change, not to mention it's a lot of work to add all the records, check all the exact times, and it's probably not worth it. I also think the idea behind the CNDoom database is pretty good, as it's good to have a port with some anti-cheating measures built in. The DSDA already serves fairly well as a combined database for all ports anyway.
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fx
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Re: cndoom suggestions

Post by fx »

Yup, dsda fills the gap. There would be no "competition" if we don't have rules. ;)
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Archy
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Re: cndoom suggestions

Post by Archy »

If client server verification ever becomes a reality, perhaps as an anti-cheat method, the server could randomly delay usetick input from 0 to 3 tics on the intermission screen. This would have no effect on the player playing the game, but if a cheater tried to stream pre-played tics to the server, the demo will eventually desync due to revenant missile behavior differing (this is why removing pausetics in multiples other than 4 often result in a desync). Of course this would only affect Doom 2 and Final Doom movies though unless the clock also affects the PRNG in other ways that I'm not aware of.